Boo!

Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:50 AM


Does that scare you?

Well, apparently it scares Dutch parliament and minister for assimilation integration Rita Verdonk. Right before the elections, the government burped out a proposal banning the burqa. Because the few dozen of women living in NL that actually wear this contraption have proved themselves a major threat to public order and safety. I am sure that anyone from NL can attest to that.
Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk, who is known for her tough policies, said it was important that all people in the Netherlands were able to see and identify each other clearly to promote integration and tolerance. [...] "It is very important that we can see each other and can communicate with each other. Because we are so tolerant we want to respect each other."(source).
That last sentence? It killed my irony meter dead. Through the roof it went.

Oh, and it is great fun being Dutch abroad now... There's this too.

Feedback

# re: Boo!

11/18/2006 11:36 AM by Hiram
There is one person, penisless, but I'd hesitate to award her the predicate 'woman', that should really wear a burqa at all times, to protect us from thinking impure thoughts (of murder, not of rape, mind you) and that person is... the dutch minister for nightly raids, raging fires and deportations, Rita Verdonk.

# re: Boo!

11/18/2006 12:11 PM by Tess
http://blogger.xs4all.nl/jungblut/

Hi Akufu, thanks for the support!

# re: Boo!

11/19/2006 8:40 AM by Akufu
She *is* a scary lady. If she gets to be vice-prime minister like she wants I may want to think twice about returning to NL. Hell, I'll probably will not be allowed back in! :)

@ Tess: no problem! I really enjoy your blog btw

# re: Boo!

11/19/2006 1:18 PM by Marduk
But it's not jist the burqa; the ski-mask and the helmet will also be outlawed. So that makes it okay.... probably... sort of.... oh heck, how dumb does she think we are?

# re: Boo!

11/19/2006 7:45 PM by Akufu
So... the helmet huh? From now on all motorcyclists are forbidden to wear a helmet in the street? Only those dorky seventies helmets can be worn?

http://watbezieltjou.vara.nl/paul_viert_feest/popupfiles/popup1.html

This seems wrong on so many levels, if this becomes law, the burqa will become a symbol of (perceived) oppression of Islam, and will be less likely to disappear on its own. Female integration and emancipation has just turned more difficult again.

# re: Boo!

9/4/2007 12:48 AM by Marcel (Holland)
You can say what you want, but the Democrats have looked the other way for decades and our country turns more and more Muslim every day. Radical imams, ritual assassinations (Theo van Gogh) and no integration after a period of decades. Rita Verdonk made some bad choices, as did Geert Wilders (still). They, and many Dutch people, however see that too many immigrants without education, skills or money are crippling our economy, which now spends billions on the immigrants, of which many don't speak a word of Dutch after living here for 30 years or more. They once came here just for the work, but our democratic government in the 60's had to let them stay. They had paid pensionmoney, so they saw their chance to live of the state. Hundred's of thousands of them no less. We are desperate and we do not want the government to give in anymore. We see public funds sometimes go to parties, which actively judge the Western world and call for fatwa's and holy wars and many rules cripple us from doing something about it. A burqa is a tool of opression and many of those women don't have the education and freedom to realise that. They have been brainwashed by their families from birth, that women should be hidden behind these things so that they can't seduce other men (only an uneducated Neantherthal could think that up). Or else they can be stoned to death. Many muslims are becoming more radical here. Especially the youth, which doesn't feel either Dutch, or Moroccan, or Turk. A survey once estimated the number of fanatic sympathisers to be 10% of the Muslim community in Holland. That's about 100.000 people. That's frightning. They also think many of those people fund terrorism. Getting back to the burqa....In Turkey it's forbidden to walk in Burqa's and facial covering is critisiced. Radicals over there are supressed and kept under the thumb by the military. Over all: If you see Europeans and other western people as "pigs" ripe for the slaughter and not worth integrating with, you have no business being here! Muslims that have integrated, speak the language and have made an effort are more than welcome. We need people who stand for ORANJE and it's meaning: a sence of being part of a whole, just like the Americans stand behind their flag and their anthem.

# re: Boo!

9/4/2007 3:50 AM by Akufu
"You can say what you want"

Yes and so can you, ain't that great?

"In Turkey it's forbidden to walk in Burqa's and facial covering is critisiced. Radicals over there are supressed and kept under the thumb by the military."

And *that* is a good thing? I would rather not live in a state where the military has such power. I hate (the misogyny of) radical Islam and I agree that if someone so dislikes western culture, they should move away, if only for their own peace of mind.

But you can not let the state determine (in such detail) what people can wear. (Employers, yes of course)
If you want to take America as an example; fine, but freedom of (religious) expression is as important to them as the flag and anthem (1st amendment after all). A good example is that the use of mescaline is allowed in religious ritual, where it is forbidden in all other contexts.

My point in this short post is not that I don't see any problem with a burqa, but I see a big problem with a government starting to meddle in citizens' private life - their clothing - under the pretense of safety (so not even equal rights for women)

Will forbidding the burqa, beard or other facial covering stop radicalism? I think not.

Also you cite some interesting numbers there, could you maybe give a link to those?



# re: Boo!

9/7/2007 3:25 PM by Marcel (Holland)
Hello Akufu,

Yes, that "radicals" are being supressed is a good thing. Who is a radical and who's not, is often more the problem. I do not stand for dictators, secret police and torture, but I do cheer when a suicide-bommer has been caught (before you know what!!!). I'm talking about a very small group of people, who's willing to blow up innocent women & children in the name of Allah. Women with burqa's and facial covering are (often) not radicals...those two groups where mentioned too close together in my earlier response. They are however critisised by the general public in many countries. Most Turks, according to television interviews with Turks (programm "Netwerk"), feel European and see that a free society, is one where women also can choose what to wear (without ever having been indoctrinated by family members) and getting back to burqa's.....just as liberal and open minded Turks, Europeans have integrated feminism in their society and acknowledge the two century long active struggle of women to have equal rights and the right not to be opressed by their family - ergo the men. We are not fully there yet, but when we see medieval scenes in documentaries about these countries, we feel that our liberal way of thinking only goes so far.
When it comes to what you can and can not wear (as a muslim), I draw the line when a persons face is no longer visible. I heared that some terrorists once tried to escape by dressing themselves in a burqa. Therefor every person needs to be recognised. This is normal in the present world. If I enter a plane, I want to know that a terrorist has not missused these "religious" clothes to hide weapons, or worse bombs.
With enough respect for every citizen and female police for inspecting women, most countries can decide to ban especially burqa's. For America I can't answer, but i'm pretty sure that covering faces (especially men) often leads to some questions from police. They have, besides terrorrism, also got problems with bankrobbers etc. And once again, feminism is also part of the American (western)culture, so the same feelings about burqa's can be found there.
The right to wear burqa's, as any clothes, is open for debate. There is no simple answer, but terrorism and non-integration makes it somewhat easier for many of the western citizens, to judge these type of clothes. I truly find it a tool of opression and the sooner it is banned in Europe, the sooner we can restart integration, because it's crippling our economy of which we are so proud. We are about the 10th or 11th richest and most advanced country in the world.
Radicalism will not dissappear when we ban burqa's, but every woman here should have the same opportunities and that's only possible when they can show who they are. As well the inside as the outside.
That about 10% of the Dutch muslims sympathise with terrorrists, comes from a tv-documentary by Nova, or Netwerk a year or two ago. This is the group that cheers when another twin tower is hit, but not the directly the same that executes the attack. It's a group of people, who silently support (money, storage), or want to support terrorrists if it really needs to. Furthermore, it's an estimate. 50.000 or a 100.00 is nevertheless a frighting number.

That the Dutch Maroccan youth is derailing, can be found in the following article: ://www.trouw.nl/deverdieping/dossiers/article7128.ece/Een+avondje+djihad

It's in Dutch, so I don't know if you can read it.
I will keep checking this site for your reply.

Marcel (Holland)

# re: Boo!

9/9/2007 6:31 AM by Akufu
I am Dutch, just don't live in NL anymore :)

So there is extremism in NL, and whether it is 100000 or 30000 (see http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article458474.ece/Ter_Horst_telt_2500_moslimactivisten) it's scary. But I (still!) don't think cutting away (our) freedom is the way to get rid of it. I am probably too idealistic and surely naive, but I get scared by a lot of the new laws that increase power of state and police. In NL I used to live in an area where they implemented the possibility to search a person without a direct reason, just being there was enough (being a white girl, it never happened to me though...). That is illegal here in the USA, also there you don't have to carry your ID on you all the time. People over here in the US are really surprised when I tell them it's the law in NL. So US citizens are well protected (though here they have the Patriot Act, phone tapping, Guantanamo... )

I think there is more to women's liberation than forbidding a burqa, which is just a symptom of the underlying problem. With regards to the safety question: forbidding burqas is window dressing, if people want to hide something under their clothing, they will wear large coats, a motor helmet, a hoodie to cover the face. All of which, you need to remove to pass through a security check point at an airport etc.

I wish I had the solution but I don't. the west is getting more scared, and the radicalism increases... a recipe for Very Bad Things indeed, but I do have faith in our democracy, justice system and secret service to keep radicals in check. I can recommend the book "the Looming Tower" by Lawrence White, it shows what went wrong in the years/months/weeks before 9/11 with the CIA and FBI. And reads like a thriller. They could have prevented it, had they communicated more, simplistically speaking. banning nail clippers from planes... or burqas would have prevented nothing.

# re: Boo!

9/9/2007 9:28 PM by Marcel (Holland)
Hello Akufu,

i really enjoy discussing this subject with you.

Taking away the Burqa's is certainly not the end of terrorrism or extremism, but the burqa is something for which we (the Dutch) did not sign up in the 50's and 60's. As I wrote earlier, it were mostly Turks and Maroccans (from mostly the poor areas of their countries) who came here after the W.W. II to do the "dirty" work that no Dutchmen wanted to do. They were a workforce and a smal minority. Problems only started when they did not return as expected, but stayed here (living of the state) and re-united with their families (mostly in the large cities) - all made possible by the left wing from that time. Many of them began to live in the same areas (often in the major cities) and from one thing came another and at a certain point some of these areas became almost ghetto's. That's propably the main reason why many of the first and second generation never integrated. There was no need for them to learn the language or being part of Dutch society. We are now living with the theird and fourth generation and islamic influence on our western world is growing and growing, with ever more Mosques and growing influence from (foreign) foundations pleeing for things as Sharia-law. As far as I know, burqa's weren't here when the first and second generation was still working in our factories and boatyards. The cry for Burqa's and resistance to the west (in Holland) has only begun a few years ago. Radical Imams from Saoedi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries are filling the heads of western Muslims with radical ideas, such as: "Western heathens are not worthy and people like Geert Wilders and Ayaan Hirsi Ali should be murdered" (strike Theo van Gogh from that list) and "When we are a majority we will be in charge and then Holland will be a muslim state - living under sharia law", etc. etc. Some of these "teachings" have been taped and/or have been passed on to the AIVD (Dutch security police). Undoubtedly those Imams had also much to say about women and their (new) position in live. Freedom of many Muslim women have been squashed and once again women are being supressed. Two houses from were a friend of ours lives, lives a Muslim woman and she has been ordered -by her husband- to weir a burqa and stay indoors and have no contact with anyone. Only a few years ago she was free to walk around in western clothes and live a western lifestyle. You can guess what made this change! I expect this is happening in thousands of homes (maybe tenths of thousands of homes in the whole of Europe).

If I look at Holland and the fact that respect for authority can hardly be found, because of the rebellious sixties and seventies, I don't think we will ever have a police state. That you can be searched and checked for ID, is a side effect from the fight against crime, handguns and only recently terrorrism.

See:
http://amsterdam.nl/aspx/download.aspx?file=/contents/pages/34516/notitieontwikkelingenpreventieffouilleren.pdf

See:
http://www.joost-eerdmans.nl/Initiatieven/illegaalwapenbezit.html

Random searches, according to me, should be subject to inspection by Human Rights-organisations, to insure the rights of those who are being searched/inspected. It is however neccessary and a price we all have to pay and the file above proofs that Dutch people in general don't have a problem with it. I realise that in America this would never be possible (maybe even shocking), because many Americans (i have the impression) are already against the state and government.
In America (using 25% of all oil in the world, of which 70% for their slurping cars) the car is as holy as the right to own a gun and in that same line....the influence of the state must be kept to a minimum as much as possible. I think Americans are much more afraid of a police state, so maybe your arguments apply more to the USA. I think the trust of the Dutch people in their government, is a lot stronger than that of many Americans in the American government. Especially now Bush (the oil-lover) is at the wheel.

Your are right that someone who wants to blow something up (for instance a plane) doesn't need a Burqa to do that. Still I would feel much saver if they would be banned from airports and large public places. Furthermore: Banning burqa's completely, would much more be a psychological milestone (to my opinion), that says "here and no further". "You must become more like us and not the other way around". "You chose a free society to live in, so if you can't deal with our liberties, acceptance of gays and freedom for all, than you should not be here!" In Holland - Muslims and foreigners are 1 to 1.5 million of a total of 16 million. In large cities they sometimes make up 25-50% of the inhabitants. In America I don't think it has yet come to those proportions. We as Europeans need to act now and burn left wing red tape to get to a ban on Burqa's.

Furthermore, don't you find it strange that a man (me) fights for a ban on Burqa's and what they represent (female opression from birth) and that you (as a woman) rather fight for keeping them, because the cost of banning burqa's would MAYBE make female integration and emancipation harder???

I say: FEMALE INTEGRATION AND EMANCIPATION IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH BURQA'S!!!!!!

Banning Burqa's and what they stand for, is just one more step for feminism to make. And in an ideal world, I wish it would reach as far as the Middle East.

# re: Boo!

9/12/2007 6:05 AM by Akufu
Hi again

Yes, I enjoy this discussion, because it definitely is something I think about alot. How do you balance safety and freedom and (sometimes repressive) law? How can you get the radicalised young muslims back into dialogue?

OK, where we agree: radicalism is a problem, burqas are bad, a lot of mistakes were made in the past concerning integration. First by carelessness, later by being PC about things

But:
"Furthermore, don't you find it strange that a man (me) fights for a ban on Burqa's and what they represent (female opression from birth) and that you (as a woman) rather fight for keeping them, because the cost of banning burqa's would MAYBE make female integration and emancipation harder"

What am I now, the Taliban? I repeat that I am *not* fighting to keep burqas, I despise them, and everything they stand for. I will fight (or at least blog for) freedom from unreasonable interference of the state in your personal life. Because, though a law against burqas seems very reasonable, the right thing to do even, it seems to me impossible to develop and enforce. As you keep saying the argument is safety (hiding your identity and maybe even bombs under it), so will that mean that all wide and concealing clothing is forbidden? How would you go about it, practically? If a burqa specifically is forbidden, a new form of covering clothing will be adopted, that will not be a burqa, so then will the law need to be changed again? You see, I think this is a sliding scale.

Also how many women wear a burqa in NL? I have lived for 15 years in the randstad, and I spotted very few burqas. Is that big enough a population to warrant a special law? Education, support, offering a safe way out for these women seems a more constructive approach. prosecuting them for what they wear? ...not so much.
I am sure that there is a role for moderate muslim organisations here. Banning burqas will make them disappear from the street, so you don't have to see them again. Great. And the women? They get locked up in the house? And you are assuming that wearing a burqa is not their own choice in the first place.

"I think the trust of the Dutch people in their government, is a lot stronger than that of many Americans in the American government."
Yes I think that is true. That alone doesn't necessarily make the Dutch government a better one, you could equally argue that the Dutch are more trusting. I maybe a lefty, but I certainly do not trust the government unconditionally. power corrupts.

"FEMALE INTEGRATION AND EMANCIPATION IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH BURQA'S!!"
No need to shout, I hear ya :)

# re: Boo!

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# re: Boo!

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# re: Boo!

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