Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP

The influence of electronics has been growing ever since the MotoGP class entered the four-stroke era. This has caused a great deal of concern among many fans and riders, as the bikes get easier to ride within 99% of their potential. To put an end to this, Carmelo Ezepeleta, the CEO of Dorna, has suggested that MotoGP could switch to a standard ECU, much as Formula 1 has done.

Any such move would cast doubt on the rationale for the MotoGP class, which is meant to be the pinnacle of motorcycle engineering. It is also unclear how a standard ECU could be created which could cope with requirements of the many different engine configurations and firing sequences currently in use in MotoGP.

Ezpeleta's suggestion should probably be seen in the context of his last proposal: to move to a single tire rule. In retrospect, it seems certain that this threat was meant solely to force the tire manufacturers and teams to reach an agreement on tire rules. The proposal to switch to a single ECU should probably also be regarded in the first gambit of a move to control the amount of electronics in MotoGP, such as traction control, wheelie control and launch control.

posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 3:51 PM

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# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Joe A
Posted @ 12/20/2007 4:31 PM
The genie's already out of the bottle.

How do you enforce rules on electronics? If there is a standard ECU adopted - which I feel is unlikely - what's to keep the factories from finding a way around that problem?

Do you remember WSBK in 2002, when Troy Bayliss crashed in the rain? I think it was in the UK.

Point is, all bikes were supposed to have a shut off switch if which would kill the engine if the bike was on its side. Bayliss' bike kept running and he remounted.

I've read that after the race the switch was checked and was found to be operable. I've also read that the probable work around would have been to have the electronics go back to default setting once the bike was shut off after the race.

That was 5 years ago in a series that in many ways is less technically oriented. Imagine what kind of things GP engineers could dream up.
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Rats MC
Posted @ 12/20/2007 7:01 PM
I am increasingly feeling like Carmelo Ezepeleta has absolutely no idea what he is doing. He seems to be just throwing changes at the wall to see what sticks with no thought as to what problem he is addressing.

Any effort that would look at making changes should start with a clearly define problem statement. What, exactly, is it we are trying to fix? What is the evidence that this problem actually exists and what is the root cause? Without a clearly defined problem statement, you cannot possible expect to be able to resolve the problem.

This is a sign of a lack of vision and leadership. Because there is a decline in viewership that has caused concern about a decline in sponsorship which means less money for everyone involved, Ezepeleta is pissing himself to come up with a solution. This is not leadership.
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Jim Race
Posted @ 12/20/2007 7:40 PM
Dear Carmelo,

Please STFU.

Your pal,

-jim
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Brooke
Posted @ 12/20/2007 8:53 PM
I think people are jumping to conclusions. Sure he's tossing out ideas and seeing the response. That's the only thing he can do. The tyre situation resolved itself to a situation that seems a very fair compromise. In F1 they've let the genie out and now put it back. We'll see how that goes. There is no doubt that cars will still start, drive around the track and someone will finish first. The key to his statement is shown that he is looking for competition like in 2005 with a battle of at least two riders going into the late stages of the race as was often found with Gibernau and Rossi (notably Sete didn't win a race but led more laps than Rossi all year, and five riders did win, on 3 different kinds of bikes!) . That is the excitement. When someone pulls away in the opening laps, the race is over very early. That's a lot of effort for a 10 minute spectacle. Sure, I've been a fan of Rossi's but I thought it got boring when he did it too. Thank goodness he switched to Yamaha and races got closer. Just think how boring the South African GP would have been in 2004 if he'd have been on the same machine as Biaggi. What a race!
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Tenar
Posted @ 12/21/2007 4:27 PM
How much power does Rossi have? He is about the only rider complaining about electronics, and immediately there is talk about a control unit. First we almost got a one tyre rule becuase of Rossi, now the electronics......
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Brooke
Posted @ 12/21/2007 5:05 PM
To be the only one quoted and the only one complaining are two different things. Traction control aids have been controversial for a long time in many other race series' as well as MotoGP. Personally, I think it would be too hard to manage unless they went to severe restrictions on power output as well and made a sort of standard motor. I'd just like to see it go so maybe McCoy would come back to GPs and slide around a bit.
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Rats MC
Posted @ 12/21/2007 5:28 PM
Brooke:

I don't actually think myself and many others are jumping to conclusions. Ezepeleta is just tossing out radical changes to the rules because of a perceived problem. We have had a single season that was a bit boring - as single season. This happens in racing. I expect that next year will be one of the best in a long time.

The issue is that there isn't a European (read Spanish or Italian) dominating and that is affecting viewership in Europe. Instead of managing MotoGP like a business and building markets in other countries Ezepeleta is proposing rule changes to favor particular riders. IS that really how we want to build competition?
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Brooke
Posted @ 12/21/2007 7:05 PM
I'd be the first to say that the whining of Rossi about the tyres was weak after he enjoyed an advantage for so long. But my point is that the tire rule was a poor idea to institute in year of a radical change in bikes and that limitations on traction control (which I'd hold as a bad idea) and control tires are not new ideas. I think a limitation on traction control would not benefit Rossi specifically, nor Pedrosa. It would actually benefit riders like Hayden, Vermeulen, Stoner and Hopkins or anyone who prefers to control the movement of the bike with the throttle as much as the front wheel! Ezepeleta is making moves like a politician; ask for the world when all you really want is a little house in the country. In the same article he admitted that he threatened a control tire to just get the companies to come to a better compromise than what they had.
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Steve Jones
Posted @ 12/21/2007 7:09 PM
I don't know that Carmelo has plotted a course that is practical. In fact, I doubt that anything practical can be done to improve the situation.

But I am sad to see the sport morph from one where the results were 80% rider and 20% bike, to the opposite. These new robo-bikes, which basically give the rider an engine that is real-time custom designed on the fly for each individual corner, have taken the rider out of the equation to a great degree.

It just isn't as fun to watch machines invisibly handle a situation that used to be a visual, visceral human struggle that laid bare the courage and talent of a few remarkable individuals.

Sure, it is possible to exaggerate the impact of traction control, but not nearly as possible as it used to be.
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Rats MC
Posted @ 12/21/2007 8:09 PM
Steve Jones:

I think that is a bit of a dramatization. If the bikes were, in fact, 80% of the equation, why then did Melandri not have a shot at the title? Or any of the other Ducati riders for that matter?

The other way to look at this is, if the rider/bike equation has changed so much, how do you explain Honda and Yamaha's dominance since 1983 and Suzuki's prior to that? During those periods. If the bike were only a small part of the explanation, it would seem that there would be at least a few other manufacturers that would have won during those period but the results are otherwise.

The fact is, there is and always has been some technological advance that is "ruining" MotoGP. This is just the latest boogeyman.
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Rats MC
Posted @ 12/21/2007 8:12 PM
Oops. Forgot to add this: Traction control is coming to streetbikes. Do we really want a premier class that is technologically out of date when compared to what you can buy at your dealership?
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Steve Jones
Posted @ 12/24/2007 7:12 PM
Rats:

I believe that some riders who were consistent podium threats pre-traction control have failed to adapt to the differences sufficiently to be as competitive with the modern traction control. I think Melandri is a perfect example. Some riders have taken very well to it.

Assuming bike was only 20% of the equation in the past, I don't argue that it is already 80%, but it is headed in that direction. It certainly moved a big chunk in 2007.

As for why dominance might seem to stick with a particular brand for a time, that dominance almost always followed a particular rider.. and when the winning team competes with other teams to sign the best riders, they always have a leg up. So winning begets more winning, and persistent dynasties sometimes appear.

When traction control hits the showroom floor, there is one and only one reason, and that is so the factories can use it in competition in classes which would ban such mods that don't appear on stock models. Nobody, not even the squids, needs traction control on the street.

So if someone found a magically practical way to ban traction control on the track, it would simply not appear on the showroom floor.

This is no bogeyman. A meaningful and visible part of the rider input to the process has been removed, and put in the silent, invisible and clearly capable hands of a computer. It changes the nature of what we see when riders are trying to find the best way through a given corner. Not in a good way.

But you kind of backed into a real good point... and that is that it would make no sense for MotoGP to try to eliminate traction control unless and until the superbike and stock class series have eliminated it. WSB, AMA, BSB, etc. It would be ridiculous for them to have it and have it not be in MotoGP.

But again, I don't really see a way to get rid of it... but future fans will have to resort to the tapes to see what real racing was like.
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Nate
Posted @ 12/24/2007 11:43 PM
Steve:
A well written, but terrifically incorrect post. Marco Melandri has never ridden a MotoGP bike that didn't have all sorts of traction control aids. The fact of the matter is that it has been said over and over by the riders and many others involved that the 800s have far less controls then the 990s did. I would encourage everyone to go read Julian Ryder's posts on the motogpnews.com forums regarding traction control.

http://www.boardzero.com/motogpnews/motogpnews-post-33452.html&highlight=#33452

View his profile and search for all of his posts. He has a number of brilliant replies regarding this exact subject. The fact of the matter is that if you want to see the bikes sliding around, you really need to change the tire technology, because at least according to Julian, they have so much grip these days TC really isn't a factor

Nevermind that traction control has been around for some 20 years in GP bikes, it's hardly a new invention.

I don't see why traction control couldn't be terrifically useful on street bikes. Just for riding in the rain alone it would be wonderful.

The reason MotoGP could in theory eliminate TC is because they may have the $$ to create and audit a standalone ecu program. Everything I have read up to this point about going to a standard ECU is that unless you've got F1 budgets (50million+) you cannot afford to oversee and create one.

Expecting banning of TC to come from the smaller series that are production based is just silly. They flat out don't have the money to ban it.

MotoGP has enough rules as is right now. I think the rules they have applied so far have been pretty good. Limit weight, gas, tires, and displacement - that's it. They need to continue to incent the manufacturer to spend money building great race bikes.
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Rats MC
Posted @ 12/27/2007 3:36 PM
Steve - First, I am thrilled that Kropotkin has given us a place where this discussion can happen without the animosity you might find elsewhere.

Anyway, I think your logic is reasonably sound but misses a couple of points.

As a serious rider I simply cannot understand how anyone could feel that TC would not be useful on the streets. I cannot begin to be able to count the number of near-misses I have had in the rain and on sandy surfaces. TC would have made these situations more manageable and certainly safer.

More to the topic I think though is the point you make about manufacturer dominance and I think here, your logic supports my point when you look at the facts. If you remove Rossi and Doohan there have been very few riders that have dominated the series for any period of time. Most often only for a single year. Since the winning manufacturers remain the same but the riders changed, I would have to believe that the bike played a pretty significant role in determining who won.
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Kropotkin
Posted @ 12/31/2007 8:28 PM

Rats,

The thing I am probably proudest about on this site is the level of discussion among its visitors. It's a real privilege to have such thoughtful and articulate readers. I take my hat off to you all.
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
Rusty Bucket PA
Posted @ 12/31/2007 8:29 PM
I'm inclined to agree with most of you on about half of your points.

RatsMC, I agree with your first point, completely; what problem is being solved? Boring races? Boring season? Excessive speed?

And SteveJones, I'm inclined to agree with your first point; if they don't look fast, they aren't exciting to watch.

The %-rider vs. %-bike equation, as most popularly put forth by Jeremy Burgess, is indeed in flux these days.

Writer "DavidW" on page 6 of that Board Zero MotoGP Forum (thank you Nate!) says it so beautifully, I am jealous:

"The big debate is definitely the passive/active thing. A system that is pre-programmed to soften power in [the] first three gears, or powervalves that boost midrange to soften power delivery, big bang engines, etc, isn't Traction Control in my opinion. If you want to call anything passive 'Traction Control' you'll end up with a ridiculously long list that includes the throttle and grippy tyres.
As far as I'm concerned, Traction Control is something that dynamically alters settings according to feedback at any given time. If the 'bike' can make an intelligent decision to give the rider less power than he actually asked for in the given instance to keep him on it, it's TC.
If you want to go into geek techno-philosophy, you're actually programming 'fear' into a mechanical object. The bike now 'fears' crashing and steps in to prevent it when the rider is trying to get it to do something it doesn't want to. Interesting line to cross."

Sadly, he made that point several weeks ago, and no one picked up on it (as far as I can tell) until now.

However, I think the larger point is being missed... Allowing this debate to devolve into the virtues - or lack thereof - in electronic traction control is a red herring. A standardized ECU makes the sport - by default - a spec series. Until we know what goal is being pursued, why is a spec ECU the suggested - or mandated - solution? It seems to be the equivalent of brain surgery with a sledge hammer.

It SHOULD go without saying that it can be viewed as just another setting for the riders and engineers to manipulate. If there's a genius engineer back at the factory who's able to exactly mate the bike's electronics to the abilities and expectations of his rider(s), then why prohibit it? How many stories are there from this year about riders going faster by turning the TC off? Let it be up to the teams, I say.

With a spec ECU, you take away more than just an "unnatural" electronic aid for the rider, you're taking away everything that makes the 4-stroke era technologically advanced. It takes away any incentive for the manufacturers to develop anything new, so their interests in lavish spending on engineering diminish also.

The tire debate of two and three months ago is the same debate as this one: do we, the fans, want to see the factories fully invested in developing the technological front with their riders showing off spectacular feats of skill and bravery to go fastest, or do we want to see a bunch of bikes "racing" at nearly identical speeds (aka 125cc)?

Repeating myself from the tire debate, I submit two items into this argument:
1). Just because F1 (meaning: Bernie Ecclestone) is doing something, doesn't mean it should be imitated; in fact, I believe the opposite course should always be pursued.
2). As good as WSBK is, if the prototype series went away, the spec series wouldn't be as popular, either. Yes, I know that WSBK isn't exactly a "spec" series, but it's most of the way there, and I believe any moves MotoGP makes in that direction would be detrimental to both.
# Ezpeleta Steps Away From A Spec ECU
Kropotkin Thinks
Posted @ 1/12/2008 10:33 PM
# re: Standard ECUs Could Come To MotoGP
cute videos
Posted @ 4/1/2008 9:39 AM
I dont know why some of these races seem boring, when you look at the really really old ones they seem more exciting.

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